I think the jockey box should optimally have six taps with lines that are easy to clean (read stainless). The jockey box itself should be more than just a coleman cooler with coils in it but say something about the technical merits of our membership. A show piece item we could drag to events like NCHF.

Well, I think we should have four taps. Six might be best, but minimum of 4.

Also, I like Bob's suggestion that we not use the standard cooler design. A wood keg or box would be nice.

And we need to consider transporation. It should fit in a small trunk or something.

- Bryan

ok....my 2 cents...

* 5-6 taps

* gas lines to both pins and balls locks. maybe we can have a connection in each gas line to allow swapping each one to either pin or ball. we need to have same for both liquid and gas lines.

* Id like to see a place for labels on BOTH front and back...so people know what is on tap.

* Thor's suggestion of something different than a cooler is a good one..but we do have to store and carry that thing, maybe even in a car.

* I looked in surplus catalog for ss heat exchanger. Not there...they must have sold them all.

* Container should be well insulated... and maybe have a drain hose.

Hi I checked in Rapids catalog and s/s coils are $114 each for 120 ft and $49 each for 50 ft. A cold plate with 4 lines is $154. They also have them with 1 or 2 lines. Size is 10"W X 15"L.
Just some thing to think about for size.

Bob wilcox

I agree that 4-6 taps is optimum, and that a "non-cooler" design would be nice. Bob J. raises a good point about both pin- and ball-lock input connectors being necessary. Are there any liquid equivalents of the gas quick-disconnects many use for CO2 connections?
Someone should do some thermodynamics calculations to figure out exactly how much stainless tubing (of what dia.) we need to get an appropriate temperature drop. We can't afford to over engineer this.

I think well insulated is a requirement, as are a convenient way to drain the water out, and transportability. Not everyone has a pickup truck to move it with.

My $0.02 worth.

In regards to Charlie's post about pin and ball lock quick disconnects, I have a product that might do the job. Its part of my miniture CO2 regulator. The end of the gas line has a screw on fitting at the end of the tube that can screw into either a ball or pin lock connector. Im pretty sure I've seen this kind of connector at local homebrew shops. Just a thought to file away for later.

Getting back to basics, what is the goal of the jockey box project? I gather it is to server our beer cold to members and at events. With this in mind, would it be worth considering something simpler in design? If the beer is going to be brought cold anyways, you could build a container with wheels that would hold 4 or so cornies. The container would be water tight so you could fill it with ice at the event to keep the cornies cold and a top that you would server the beer out of like a mini bar.

Its just a thought I had for a similar project I was going to make for a single cornie. It has the advantage of not having coils to clean and not requiring as much engineering to figure out the coil length and pressure problems. The device just keeps the beer cold, hides the kegs from view, and allows for easy dispensing.

I use those screw thread connections Thor is speaking of on a lot of my connection. Ilike them because I can open the line up to dry and reduce or eliminate the mold. I got them at Fox. Good idea!

Since we seem to be getting into the design phase in this forum...Thor suggested a big bucket of ice concept...not a bad one...but cooling 6 cornis of hot beer is a bit much I think...the jockey box only requires enough ice to cool just the beer being poured. However, it is a concept we should consider.

I'm not sure if Mike is thinking of the big blue bucket that the San Diego folks had at the Napa thing, but that held four cornies with four taps on teh outside. Nice, but bulky. Probably not heavy, but no likely to fit in the trunk either.

Definately need to accommodate pin and ball. Just a Y connector, right?

So stainless is best for cleaning, right? but it costs more and doesn't hve the heat transfer. How hard is it to clean copper? Eventually, someone will forget to clean it right away, so then how do we clean it?

Pros & cons for cooling methods:

1. No power. Water resistant box on wheels, filled with ice: Is transportable to places without power (picnic in the park), but may be bulky. Would like cooling box to break down for transport (so plastic coolers, plastic garbage cans, fiberglassed plywood boxes are not good), but also be water resistant when used (in case used indoors at Brewmaster). Suggest plywood form with hinges, and plastic bag inserts. But that still doesn't solve the draining/mess issue with falling ice every time you put in/pull out a cornie. Would be nice to invent a HUGE blue-ice reusable, self-contained collar that fits around the kegs or bow-tie-shaped rod that fits between the kegs. Frozen water bottles would work OK too between the keg gaps. Here's the predictability problem: can have 1 to 6 kegs, but you never know how many for sure in advance, and they may be 5 gal or 2.5 gal. So, you can't rely on the closeness of other kegs to prop up coolant. Need modular, fairly solid coolant.

2. Power. Cooling coils: Expensive, need refrigerant, need power to pump refrigerant (bummer for set-up in the park), probably heavy, maybe noisy. Possible to use some combo of #1 above with small electric pump through fan-cooled radiator. Same priciple as water cooler or your car. If you can find a used drinking fountain, you might be able to re-use the cooling guts. Still a heavy design.

Gas - QCs are preferable. Use work-shop air compressor fittings or order CO2-specific QCs from Hansen's (I have catalog). Probably need check valves just in case someone forgets to bleed their keg before plugging in to the common gas manifold. Have a variety of keg fittings off the manifold to accommodate Bob's pin-locks and ball-locks for the rest of us.

Taps - cobra-head party taps will work and are OK to clean ... flop around a lot, so might be messy. But I think a world class jockey box should have permanent taps. More expensive, but could control filling and spilling better. As for a place for labels, I suggest a removable label card inserted into plastic pocket or some sort of slot. Remember library card files with those brass frames for labeling contents? That'd work. No stick-on labels.

As for bending SS coils ... I can get it done, probably free, just once, for this project. But don't expect to go into production using my source (who uses spare time/equipment at work).

A lot of Ken's post makes sense. I still lean toward the jockey box concept, rather than the bucket o' ice concept. Jockey box gives a dispensing system, and could be expanded to include gas distribution. The bucket o' ice still leaves us having to solve both those problems.

I think that some kind of fiberglass or resin lined wooden box (exterior can be ornate) with nice generic tap handles and fancy brass card holders and a nice drip tray would be nice. And could be designed to have a gas distribution system included. And could be easy to transport.

How much space does 4-6 tap handles and stainless coils need?
How much stainless coil do we need?
How much pressure drop does that create?
How much gas pressure do we need to push beer through that much tubing?

Beer for thought.

From other jockey boxes I have seen, the length of the coil in stainless per tap can be anywhere from 25-50 feet. Is this a number that others have seen? I guess my concern in building a jockey box with this length of coil per tap is that is might be pretty large. The largest commercial jockey box I;ve seen is a coleman cooler with two coils. Would a six tap version have to be placed in an enclosure 3 times bigger than your average two tap box in order to cool the beer?

Mike,

My concern isn't the space considerations, the coils can be co-axial if need be to reduce space. Hmmm, now there's an engineering idea. Since we're already able to have a coil of ?any? complexity made, why not have 6 coils wound on the same mandrel to save space.

Then the space limitation becomes the front panel space for the tap handles and drip tray.

Anyway, my concern about 50' coils is the pressure drop. Am I going to have to put 55 psi on my beer to push it through 50' of ~1/4" ss tubing?

As I posted before cold plates with 4 lines are
10"wide and 15"long. We sure won't get 4 or 6 S/S coils in that small of a space. A nice wooden box could be made water proof on the inside. May even be able to make it with 2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and foam sheets. Take a look at ebay Item #67744822 if you want to see a good looking jockey box.I think what we need is a nice looking box that makes a statement about our club.

My $0.02 worth for today: From HBD#2947 Feb 6, 1999
> 4. Has anyone designed a homemade jockey box that will handle the
> cooling of beer fron two kegs at the same time? What size (dia. &
> length) coil did you use?

Just use 2 coils. I don't see where there is a problem here.
I tried 15' of 3/8", but that wasn't long enough to cool really
well. I suppose it would be good for a british style ale, though.
I had to move to 25' to get the chilling I wanted.

cheers,
-Alan

- --
Alan McKay Nortel Networks
Norstar Team 613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay@nortelnetworks.com


Just one data point. If 25 ft of 3/8 works, I'd bet 20 ft of 1/4in might work.
<Chas>

Is there a commercial example of a jockey box?

My current thinking is to scan what's on the market or what everyone else has done (eBay, etc.) and improve upon their designs.

Brewing Techniques isn't particularly revealing, but http://www.cobritt.com looks it might have some designs we could use.

Well, I checked out the Hogshead Tapper over at www.corbin.com, and I'm not impressed. The appearance, of a beer barrel with tap handles, is one approach to the design.

Are there any woodworkers in the club? Anyone with a table saw?

Does Foxx sell a JB made up? Bob?

Okay, so I will kick in my two cents worth too.

1. I agree minimum of 4 taps, 6 highly desirable.

2. I agree we got to figure out our goal. Cool alot of beer, or just cool as we pour. That sort of will focus our design.

3. I think transportation is key. Can we make a modular product, one that can be broken down into small pieces.

4. Do we want to serve the beer or have people serve themselves? It would be nice to have both options and that might also change how we design the jockey box.

5. Ball and Pin connects are a must.

6. What about gas? Lets also build in a line for a CO2 tank and plan on getting a small tank.

7. Should we see about a guiness tap or is that too rich for our blood?

Okay, my brain is reeling... I like wood.

Lisa

I checked Rapids catalog and they have
3 tap blue cooler with 120 Ft coils for $498
3 tap blue cooler with 50 Ft coils for $327
4 tap red cooler with a cold plate for $338

Both say 25-30 lbs co2 required
Red coolers with plate serves up to 180-12oz drinks per hour but it dosn't say if the 180th is very cold.
Size 14Wx23Dx15H at 35lbs

The blue coolers with coils provide the best high volume cooling available according to the catalog.
Size 16Wx31Lx16H 120'coil 57lbs--50'coil 42lbs

Just a little data for size and weight. I don't thing we could get more then 3 taps in a box using S/S coils and still be very portable.

BobW

Some data points I've collected:

WEIGHT: Empty 10-gal soda keg (Cornelius or Spartanburg) weight = 10 lbs. Full soda keg weight = 83.5 lb (liquid) + 10 lb (keg) = 93.5 lb. For 6 kegs, the container must hold at least 561 lbs.

DIMENSIONS: Height = 25", diameter = 8.5". For 6 kegs stacked together, the minimum dimensions are 25.5" long by 17" wide by 25" deep.

FITTINGS: Ball lock = 7/8" deep socket (just a data point .. not particularly useful to jockey box design).

Re: Lisa's design issue #2 - what to cool.
I think the "cool as you pour" sounds like a terrific idea at first. I have to ask, what happens to the kegs under this scenario? Do they just sit around at room temperature, or above room temperature at a picnic? Perhaps an insulated covering could help minimize the thermal exposure, but I'm thinking you bring your kegs to an event, presumably already cooled, and want to dispense without risking the entire contents. I imagine we'd probably want both cooling methods, but I'd prioritize the design as:
1. keep the kegs from getting warmer, and endeavor to reduce their overall temperature. Sure, you have to cool more volume, but you have up to 5x6=30 gallons of homebrew at risk. Then,
2. cool as you pour, just in case the keg's contents haven't yet reached the lower temperature.

This whole thing is beginning to sound like an ice cream cart with kegs and taps instead of good humor bars.

More follow-ups:

Now I understand Charlie's woodworking question after looking closely at the JB design at <a href=" http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=67744822">eBay</a>.

Yes, I have a table saw (with tenon jig), access to a router table, etc. Also, I have access to some exotic woods (tanoak, mesquite, bay) but we have to mill/kiln it first.

Also, the interesting stuff at Cobritt wasn't the cosmetic barrel dispenser. It was the <a href="http://www.cobritt.com/teccooloing.htm">ThermoElectric Cooling</a> using low-wattage fans instead of coolants.

Here's a proposal:

We build not one but two boxes! One, a conventional "coils (or plate) in ice" with nice tap
handles and drip tray. The other, just a plain, water-tight (fiberglass cloth & resin) box with a drain to hold the same number of cornies as there are tap handles on the jockey box. That way, we can use any combination of the two boxes, the second box costs next to nothing yet adds the ability to cool the beer at the source. It can also serve as a mounting point for the CO2 distribution system (does this need pin- and ball-lock both for all the cornies?).

More stuff to think about.

<Chas>

Does anyone have any idea of why we should use stainless and not copper? Is stainless really easier to clean? Copper is cheaper, easier to work with, and better thermal transfer.

As for ease of cleaning: we can run bleach or even caustic through stainless. Neither is good for copper. In fact, bleach and copper form a toxic compound that's soluable in beer/wort.

Copper would be easier to fabricate, but harder to clean. I'm not sure you can safely run BLC through copper either.